Thoughtful and reflects my experience as well. I have noticed that in recent years, the number of Europeans surprised by my lack of desire to live in the US has dropped sharply. It is no longer the land of opportunity. Correspondingly the number of Americans expressing jealousy that I live in Europe has grown. It is a sad state of affairs. In my book, Spain 5, US 0. Although I am looking forward to seeing friends and family and having some incredible junk food (ginger ale, cream soda, sheet cakes, chili dogs and nachos are on my list) this summer, my first visit in 7 years.
Yes. It seems like it flipped incredibly quickly. And something happened during Covid that was very bad and that I don’t fully understand, but a friend summarized it by saying, “everyone realized that they were on their own.”
This how it happens, according to my buddies who have studied public sentiment and democratic collapse. Slowly at first and then all at once, in the same way that aging accelerates the further along you get, so that age 60-70 is child's play compared to 70-80. The trajectory is downward.
As I read your thoughtful post, I couldn't help but wonder why so many people still want to come to the US even if it costs them their life.
As an immigrant myself, I look back on the decisions that led to my move from India in the early 90's, and then eventually to seeking permanent residency and citizenship in the early 2000's. It wasn't that I was running away from a desperate and life-threatening situation; rather it was to learn, grow and achieve a better life. I consider myself very lucky to be able to reach this point in my life.
Now this is my home and I pledge allegiance to the flag, although I cannot relate much to the relatively short history of this young nation. But I want to believe in the founding principles, the core and the ideals of the American experiment. I want to believe that they would hold up despite our current problems, as they have many times in the past.
Am I in denial? Should I treat the last 30 years of my life as sunk cost and leave?
As I learn about our history, I am becoming more aware that the burden of keeping the American ideals has generally fallen on the most marginalized communities. They have kept the faith alive as they struggle to find their place in this not-yet-perfect union. They have believed in it strongly enough to risk their lives. But maybe they have no other choice.
In the end, I think it is not about which country you call home. It is more about where you feel you belong.
I wonder though - and I ask this with no disrespect - what your trade-off analysis would look like if you had moved to a less developed country.
I don’t think you’re in denial — it seems to be working well for you. But one thing that you might not grasp as an immigrant (a senior immigrant, but still!) is the sense of disbelief. As recently as the ‘90s, the U.S. was rocking. It was an excellent place to be. It’s hard to accept not only that it is no longer a good place, but that this could possibly reverse at all. We got a pretty good dose of propanganda as schoolchildren…
"Plenty of American friends who, unshackled from the nightmare stress of late capitalism, are blooming like roses." This is so true for me here in Portugal, too, though my friends include many nationalities, not just Americans, but are almost all immigrants from somewhere else, other places where late capitalism and the ravages of imperialism and colonialism have degraded the quality of life. I also have this sense that we've come to a place where we can bloom, more removed from the shadow of empire. There's an incredible creative energy here in this port city of Porto, where creatives from different cultures are meeting and sharing ideas and resources and we're building each other up and doing incredible things. It's exciting! As the U.S. moves more and more to shed the diversity and "melting pot" ideals that made it "great," they are going to lose ground on innovation. I see it as a fallen empire, already devoid of the opportunity it used to boast of.
Also, I would score every metric you listed in Portugal's favor, too, including healthcare. No time to go into detail right now, but though it hasn't been perfect, the national healthcare (dental and vison included) is infinitely more accessible, affordable, and high quality here. Private insurance and care is available here, too, but I don't use it or see any need for it.
Completely agree. At some point, the dysfunction and decline in the U.S. is going to hit where it hurts: Business. Plenty of countries are already moving away from the dollar.
Re-reading my comment I realize I worded something in a way that could be misleading. To clarify, dental and optometry aren't part of the national healthcare here as far as I know, but they do remain accessible, affordable, and high-quality, even without insurance. Private dental and vision insurance (and health insurance) are available here, but I haven't felt the need to obtain it. Veterinary care is also incredibly affordable and high-quality here. Seeing the many, many little ways they do things differently here has really hit home how incredibly wasteful and inefficient the system is in the U.S.
💯 You do you! I lived overseas for 15 years in 13 countries. I speak, read and write French to Level B2. As soon as I’m completed my treatments in June 2025, I’m moving overseas (don’t know where yet - probably France 🇫🇷) again. ❤️💕💯
I have been thinking this when I travel for about 15 years, which is--Americans are just SO freaked out. Anything can set them off. Some people are incapable of normal convivialty.
And I see this in myself sometimes--hypervigilance and anxiety. Losing the plot, insne focus on trivial matters, impatience, etc.
Life is short! I need to shut out the ugliness but it's just hard when I do not see my government valuing HUMAN LIFE sometimes, and people sometimes cheering this on. FFS sometimes it's like a horror movie. People in government are LITERALLY claiming there is a right to the tools of mass murder.
What words do you use? Madness? It's incomprehensible to me.
And I don't want this attitude of looking around with trepidation. I think we have almost an abusive culture at this point. It's the racism, xenophobia,, sexism, hateful bigotry of all social minorities, militarism, worship of violence and money.
Another aspect is the value system has become skewed toward the wealthy so much that everyone feels economically anxious, threatened, there's a strong sense nobody matters, excess materialism-so this creates a stress in people as they fear being cast aside, and they take it out on each other.
Greed and racism is eclipsing too many good things here.
Most people aren't even like this is the depressing part. It's the actions of a minority. It's a society that requires more social and economic equality to function well. We don't have feudalist values.
My spouse and I considered moving away years ago. I know it's inevitable but don't feel good about abandoning all the good people just to evade the haters. My family needs me and I can still contribute to my society. My contributions aren't valued because our culture doesn't value education, but I make a difference here. It's meaningful. I could not contribute so well in another setting.
We have a beautiful niche, where people are lovely.
But there's a lot of work and stress involved in the USA in just avoiding the stewing toxic brew.
It's absolutely tragic. But this just happens in some societies, I guess. I believe runaway inequality is the cause but there's really no proof. It just seems to have put us at a tipping point.
America isn't even all that bigoted, unjust, and dangerous--yet.It's simply the loudness of those elements is killing the free and generous and justice-loving aspects of our culture, and I want a more ethical context for my children to grow up in.
Thank you for this comment. It's an excellent summary of many things I hear as whispers. It seems to me that somewhere along the line since 2016, the curtain dropped and now it is clear to many Americans how capitalism really perceives us (as meat for labor) and it's not pretty. May I ask where you are?
USA. East Coast. My spouse can get EU citizenship. So I guess we will do this. America is still good, just declining. It's becoming more like some other places--open ethnic/racial conflict, strongmen, corrupt cops, mafia-like thinking in the government, crumbling infrastructure, etc. I have lived in countries that are really forked up before. It's not ideal but one can manage. I think it's just more troubling to watch the ugliness brewing, and see that the response to it is so weak.
Crime is not high relative to US levels, some city and state governments are still good. There is a thick underlying layer of decency and competence that it will take awhile for the termites to eat through.
Your post implies a lot about the culture, and I think that's the part I want to get my kids away from--the love of violence, militarism, materialism over quality of life, fomenting of group hatreds. It's like I drive my normal size compact car to the suburbs for a soccer game and we're surrounded by HUGE pickups of intimidation. Going to the car, wondering if we won't make it to our car alive. These people are getting bigger and bigger vehicles because everyone else is. They think it's normal to take a tractor trailer to a soccer game.
It feels like a metaphor for how the culture is hard to navigate. One is affected by it, even while trying to stay relatively amiable and chill. You kind of have to watch your back. People are encouraged in their individualism because it promotes consumption--without realizing the VALUE of the individual is actually erased by this process.
Very interesting. Culture is the factor you really feel. And the American obsession with size has always fascinated me. I hope all goes smoothly for you guys as you make your way here!
Laura, I'm really curious to get your and your husband's ideas about a conversation I had with a Swede who said the image of Sweden isn't the reality. I put the conversation notes into point form.
- Swedish culture is often misunderstood by non-Scandinavians.
- Common reaction when traveling: surprise at the desire to leave Sweden.
- Feeling foreign in one's own country; described as a "golden jail."
- Superficially perfect appearance: nice homes and cars.
- Reality: highest personal debt; most people do not own their homes or cars.
- Cultural norm: silence about personal troubles; avoidance of conflict.
- Gossip and talking behind backs is prevalent, even within families.
- Socialism without neighborly care.
- Culture of denouncement: encouraged to report others' misbehavior.
- Government propaganda: belief that Sweden is the best, worse elsewhere.
- Example: parents' fear of moving to Montenegro, believing it to be unsafe.
- Irony: Montenegro is safer; Sweden has a high rate of rape per capita.
- Sweden and North Korea: governments "own" children; risk of losing custody for noncompliance with schooling.
- Confusing mix of socialism and nonsensical policies.
More later, but ust popping in to say the rape thing is ridiculous. Sweden looks like “the rape capital of Europe” only because of reporting procedures. In reality, women are very very safe here. I have daughters and do not ever worry. For more: https://www.thelocal.se/20170221/why-sweden-is-not-the-rape-capital-of-the-world
Having lived in Sweden for 2,5 years I can agree with several of these. I too have heard people describe it as a comfortable prison. Swedish crime affects mostly immigrant neighbourhoods, and so most 'original Swedes' see it as a non issue. Racism in Sweden is very real, but not spoken about. Swedes are so scared of potential conflict that they avoid meeting neighbours in the building they live in (if they see you coming, they shut their door, till you're gone, and only then venture out). I had people not talk to me for most of my time in the building until a few days before leaving, when I was shipping my goods and it was clear I would not be back... Swedish exceptionalism is a big thing, they simply think that everything in Sweden is amazing... that said, I do think that country is beautiful and Stockholm is an amazing city, with gorgeous architecture, beautiful parks, great swimming, hiking, museums and gallers, good, if overpriced restaurants, and if I could afford it, I would live in Sweden for 2-3 months a year, June-August.
Yes, it's a paradise here in the summer. But the critical context for me was that I was coming from the U.S., where so many aspects of life have become unreasonably difficult. Sweden cares about my children, and for that I would do anything for them. It's an enormous relief.
Thoughtful and reflects my experience as well. I have noticed that in recent years, the number of Europeans surprised by my lack of desire to live in the US has dropped sharply. It is no longer the land of opportunity. Correspondingly the number of Americans expressing jealousy that I live in Europe has grown. It is a sad state of affairs. In my book, Spain 5, US 0. Although I am looking forward to seeing friends and family and having some incredible junk food (ginger ale, cream soda, sheet cakes, chili dogs and nachos are on my list) this summer, my first visit in 7 years.
Yes. It seems like it flipped incredibly quickly. And something happened during Covid that was very bad and that I don’t fully understand, but a friend summarized it by saying, “everyone realized that they were on their own.”
Yes, I was going to say this! It did change quickly.
This how it happens, according to my buddies who have studied public sentiment and democratic collapse. Slowly at first and then all at once, in the same way that aging accelerates the further along you get, so that age 60-70 is child's play compared to 70-80. The trajectory is downward.
As I read your thoughtful post, I couldn't help but wonder why so many people still want to come to the US even if it costs them their life.
As an immigrant myself, I look back on the decisions that led to my move from India in the early 90's, and then eventually to seeking permanent residency and citizenship in the early 2000's. It wasn't that I was running away from a desperate and life-threatening situation; rather it was to learn, grow and achieve a better life. I consider myself very lucky to be able to reach this point in my life.
Now this is my home and I pledge allegiance to the flag, although I cannot relate much to the relatively short history of this young nation. But I want to believe in the founding principles, the core and the ideals of the American experiment. I want to believe that they would hold up despite our current problems, as they have many times in the past.
Am I in denial? Should I treat the last 30 years of my life as sunk cost and leave?
As I learn about our history, I am becoming more aware that the burden of keeping the American ideals has generally fallen on the most marginalized communities. They have kept the faith alive as they struggle to find their place in this not-yet-perfect union. They have believed in it strongly enough to risk their lives. But maybe they have no other choice.
In the end, I think it is not about which country you call home. It is more about where you feel you belong.
I wonder though - and I ask this with no disrespect - what your trade-off analysis would look like if you had moved to a less developed country.
I don’t think you’re in denial — it seems to be working well for you. But one thing that you might not grasp as an immigrant (a senior immigrant, but still!) is the sense of disbelief. As recently as the ‘90s, the U.S. was rocking. It was an excellent place to be. It’s hard to accept not only that it is no longer a good place, but that this could possibly reverse at all. We got a pretty good dose of propanganda as schoolchildren…
"Plenty of American friends who, unshackled from the nightmare stress of late capitalism, are blooming like roses." This is so true for me here in Portugal, too, though my friends include many nationalities, not just Americans, but are almost all immigrants from somewhere else, other places where late capitalism and the ravages of imperialism and colonialism have degraded the quality of life. I also have this sense that we've come to a place where we can bloom, more removed from the shadow of empire. There's an incredible creative energy here in this port city of Porto, where creatives from different cultures are meeting and sharing ideas and resources and we're building each other up and doing incredible things. It's exciting! As the U.S. moves more and more to shed the diversity and "melting pot" ideals that made it "great," they are going to lose ground on innovation. I see it as a fallen empire, already devoid of the opportunity it used to boast of.
Also, I would score every metric you listed in Portugal's favor, too, including healthcare. No time to go into detail right now, but though it hasn't been perfect, the national healthcare (dental and vison included) is infinitely more accessible, affordable, and high quality here. Private insurance and care is available here, too, but I don't use it or see any need for it.
Completely agree. At some point, the dysfunction and decline in the U.S. is going to hit where it hurts: Business. Plenty of countries are already moving away from the dollar.
Yuuup.
Re-reading my comment I realize I worded something in a way that could be misleading. To clarify, dental and optometry aren't part of the national healthcare here as far as I know, but they do remain accessible, affordable, and high-quality, even without insurance. Private dental and vision insurance (and health insurance) are available here, but I haven't felt the need to obtain it. Veterinary care is also incredibly affordable and high-quality here. Seeing the many, many little ways they do things differently here has really hit home how incredibly wasteful and inefficient the system is in the U.S.
💯 You do you! I lived overseas for 15 years in 13 countries. I speak, read and write French to Level B2. As soon as I’m completed my treatments in June 2025, I’m moving overseas (don’t know where yet - probably France 🇫🇷) again. ❤️💕💯
That sounds fabulous! I'm wishing you every chance at happiness!
I have been thinking this when I travel for about 15 years, which is--Americans are just SO freaked out. Anything can set them off. Some people are incapable of normal convivialty.
And I see this in myself sometimes--hypervigilance and anxiety. Losing the plot, insne focus on trivial matters, impatience, etc.
Life is short! I need to shut out the ugliness but it's just hard when I do not see my government valuing HUMAN LIFE sometimes, and people sometimes cheering this on. FFS sometimes it's like a horror movie. People in government are LITERALLY claiming there is a right to the tools of mass murder.
What words do you use? Madness? It's incomprehensible to me.
And I don't want this attitude of looking around with trepidation. I think we have almost an abusive culture at this point. It's the racism, xenophobia,, sexism, hateful bigotry of all social minorities, militarism, worship of violence and money.
Another aspect is the value system has become skewed toward the wealthy so much that everyone feels economically anxious, threatened, there's a strong sense nobody matters, excess materialism-so this creates a stress in people as they fear being cast aside, and they take it out on each other.
Greed and racism is eclipsing too many good things here.
Most people aren't even like this is the depressing part. It's the actions of a minority. It's a society that requires more social and economic equality to function well. We don't have feudalist values.
My spouse and I considered moving away years ago. I know it's inevitable but don't feel good about abandoning all the good people just to evade the haters. My family needs me and I can still contribute to my society. My contributions aren't valued because our culture doesn't value education, but I make a difference here. It's meaningful. I could not contribute so well in another setting.
We have a beautiful niche, where people are lovely.
But there's a lot of work and stress involved in the USA in just avoiding the stewing toxic brew.
It's absolutely tragic. But this just happens in some societies, I guess. I believe runaway inequality is the cause but there's really no proof. It just seems to have put us at a tipping point.
America isn't even all that bigoted, unjust, and dangerous--yet.It's simply the loudness of those elements is killing the free and generous and justice-loving aspects of our culture, and I want a more ethical context for my children to grow up in.
Thank you for this comment. It's an excellent summary of many things I hear as whispers. It seems to me that somewhere along the line since 2016, the curtain dropped and now it is clear to many Americans how capitalism really perceives us (as meat for labor) and it's not pretty. May I ask where you are?
USA. East Coast. My spouse can get EU citizenship. So I guess we will do this. America is still good, just declining. It's becoming more like some other places--open ethnic/racial conflict, strongmen, corrupt cops, mafia-like thinking in the government, crumbling infrastructure, etc. I have lived in countries that are really forked up before. It's not ideal but one can manage. I think it's just more troubling to watch the ugliness brewing, and see that the response to it is so weak.
Crime is not high relative to US levels, some city and state governments are still good. There is a thick underlying layer of decency and competence that it will take awhile for the termites to eat through.
Your post implies a lot about the culture, and I think that's the part I want to get my kids away from--the love of violence, militarism, materialism over quality of life, fomenting of group hatreds. It's like I drive my normal size compact car to the suburbs for a soccer game and we're surrounded by HUGE pickups of intimidation. Going to the car, wondering if we won't make it to our car alive. These people are getting bigger and bigger vehicles because everyone else is. They think it's normal to take a tractor trailer to a soccer game.
It feels like a metaphor for how the culture is hard to navigate. One is affected by it, even while trying to stay relatively amiable and chill. You kind of have to watch your back. People are encouraged in their individualism because it promotes consumption--without realizing the VALUE of the individual is actually erased by this process.
Very interesting. Culture is the factor you really feel. And the American obsession with size has always fascinated me. I hope all goes smoothly for you guys as you make your way here!
LOL, yes. The size thing is hilarious. Thank you!
Laura, I'm really curious to get your and your husband's ideas about a conversation I had with a Swede who said the image of Sweden isn't the reality. I put the conversation notes into point form.
- Swedish culture is often misunderstood by non-Scandinavians.
- Common reaction when traveling: surprise at the desire to leave Sweden.
- Feeling foreign in one's own country; described as a "golden jail."
- Superficially perfect appearance: nice homes and cars.
- Reality: highest personal debt; most people do not own their homes or cars.
- Cultural norm: silence about personal troubles; avoidance of conflict.
- Gossip and talking behind backs is prevalent, even within families.
- Socialism without neighborly care.
- Culture of denouncement: encouraged to report others' misbehavior.
- Government propaganda: belief that Sweden is the best, worse elsewhere.
- Example: parents' fear of moving to Montenegro, believing it to be unsafe.
- Irony: Montenegro is safer; Sweden has a high rate of rape per capita.
- Sweden and North Korea: governments "own" children; risk of losing custody for noncompliance with schooling.
- Confusing mix of socialism and nonsensical policies.
More later, but ust popping in to say the rape thing is ridiculous. Sweden looks like “the rape capital of Europe” only because of reporting procedures. In reality, women are very very safe here. I have daughters and do not ever worry. For more: https://www.thelocal.se/20170221/why-sweden-is-not-the-rape-capital-of-the-world
That article was really interesting. I haven't thought of that. Thank you!
Having lived in Sweden for 2,5 years I can agree with several of these. I too have heard people describe it as a comfortable prison. Swedish crime affects mostly immigrant neighbourhoods, and so most 'original Swedes' see it as a non issue. Racism in Sweden is very real, but not spoken about. Swedes are so scared of potential conflict that they avoid meeting neighbours in the building they live in (if they see you coming, they shut their door, till you're gone, and only then venture out). I had people not talk to me for most of my time in the building until a few days before leaving, when I was shipping my goods and it was clear I would not be back... Swedish exceptionalism is a big thing, they simply think that everything in Sweden is amazing... that said, I do think that country is beautiful and Stockholm is an amazing city, with gorgeous architecture, beautiful parks, great swimming, hiking, museums and gallers, good, if overpriced restaurants, and if I could afford it, I would live in Sweden for 2-3 months a year, June-August.
Yes, it's a paradise here in the summer. But the critical context for me was that I was coming from the U.S., where so many aspects of life have become unreasonably difficult. Sweden cares about my children, and for that I would do anything for them. It's an enormous relief.